The Role of Electrical Engineering in LED Lighting w/ Excel Engineering

Introduction

Adam: Alright, this is the Wisconsin
Lighting Lab podcast. My name is Adam Rupp, and my very special guest today is
Matt with Excel Engineering. Matt, welcome.

Matt: Thank you, thank you for having
me.

Adam: So Matt, let's dive in. Give me
a few background details on Excel, and what your role is within the lighting
and electrical department.

Matt: Excel is kind of a one-stop shop
for all engineering needs under one roof. We have everything from
architectural, structural, civil, process, MEP — I work under the electrical
department. We also have a precast division. I've been there for 12 years this
year. We have about 200 employees.

Adam: Wow.

Matt: Yep, and we've been growing
quite a bit — a couple of building additions since I've been there. Really a
great company to work for.

Adam: That's awesome.

Typical Projects

Adam: What does a typical project look
like? I know you guys do a lot on the food processing side of things, and I
know you serve a number of different end markets. When an end-user comes to
you, what are they really looking for Excel to do?

Matt: We do a lot of different
projects — pretty much you name it, we've done it or we'll do it. A lot of
times, our biggest moneymaker is the food industry. A lot of dairy plants — we
are in Wisconsin.

Adam: That's right, a lot of cheese
being made.

Matt: So we thrive on that. That's
kind of our bread and butter. But we do everything from retail, hospitality,
other commercial office buildings. But mainly, like I said, it's the dairy
industry that we really thrive on.

One-Stop Shop

Adam: When a customer comes to you,
they're really looking, as you mentioned, for a one-stop shop. You guys have an
electrical team, mechanical team, structural teams, and I know you do some IoT
and controls type things as well. Within the electrical department, is that
where the lighting team kind of also resides? And at what point in the process
does your crew take over that silo within the job?

Matt: Typically it's a good aspect
from an owner's perspective to be under one roof. We can walk down the hall and
contact the architect if there are any issues or questions. So that really is a
positive aspect. The lighting design is under the electrical department. I'm
kind of one of the lead lighting designers or electrical designers. So that's
all done under our department. Like I said, it's really great to be a one-stop
shop — owners like that, where they don't have multiple firms to attend to and
keep things in line.

Adam: So when you say owner, you mean
the end-user of the product — the person building the facility or expanding
their facility — the person that's hiring you guys?

Matt: Right, exactly.

Adam: Got it.

Project Management & Utility Coordination

Adam: Within electrical, there are a
few different components. Lighting is one of them. How much do you get involved
on the power side of things — making sure that the customer's power is clean
and working with utility companies, and making sure whatever electronics are
plugged in the system are operating within that specification?

Matt: Yeah, absolutely. We work with
the utility, and a lot of times they're greenfield sites or new buildings, and
many of these projects are big buildings that will require multiple electrical
services. Obviously, the utility has to be made aware of that. We take what the
owner's wants and needs are electrically, do some calculations, and determine —
let's say there's a building with multiple services — we'll take those
requirements and distribute power accordingly to handle the owner's needs.

Adam: There's a pretty major project
management role as well. It's not just the technical side, doing layouts and
design — you guys are really helping manage the overall scope. There's a lot
going on in the background as well, correct?

Regulatory & Building Codes

Adam: From a regulatory standpoint or
building codes, that can vary state to state quite a bit. I imagine, given you
guys are headquartered in Wisconsin, you know a lot about that market. You also
have licenses in all states, correct? So I know you're headquartered in
Wisconsin, but do you work on projects outside of Wisconsin as well?

Matt: Absolutely, yeah. And obviously,
the codes do differ state to state. The biggest one that we're dealing with on
the lighting side is the IECC — the International Energy Conservation Code.
That really differs; we've seen the most change with that from state to state
as of late, because some states are adopting more stringent energy codes
compared to others. So that's been the headache, or hiccup — not headache, but
a lot of work goes into making sure that you're abiding by those codes.

What Excel Looks For in Lighting Products

Adam: On the lighting design side of
things, what are you guys looking for in products, in manufacturers, in
controls? It's our goal as a factory — and a lot of the people that support our
products in the supply chain — business 101 is to make it easy on the folks
that are specifying our products and purchasing our products. How can we as a
factory make your job easier?

Matt: Number one, honestly, is
quality. We want to spec fixtures that are going to last, that are going to
work right away, that you just have a good feeling about — you've used them,
they're tried and true. That's the biggest thing. The next thing with a lot of
our projects and owners — they're obviously, like any owner, concerned about
cost. They don't want to overspend. There's always a budget, and that's
something to take into account too. But you get what you pay for. There's a
fine line there.

Adam: There really is.

Matt: It is a fine line, but quality
would be the number one thing. If you haven't heard of a company, maybe stay
away from that.

Vendor Relationships

Adam: We do the same thing on the
component side — number one, vet our vendors as much as possible. It's funny:
the longer I do this, the more the idea that one person's product is another
person's component really rings true. In our mind, our engineering, our
products, our light fixture — in your mind, that's a component within the
overall building that you're designing, right? So those first principles of
quality and vendor relationships and making things easy on people — it'll work
into products. I think it really rings true at all levels.

Matt: Right. There's a lot more that
goes into it. Lighting is just one part of an entire building when it comes to
producing construction drawings. But yeah, it comes down to quality, and things
that you trust, and warranty, and things like that.

The Electrical & Lighting Team

Adam: Within the engineering silo at
Excel, let's talk specifically about the electrical and lighting department.
What types of engineers or engineering disciplines are on that team —
positions, backgrounds? What does that team look like?

Matt: We have a couple of licensed
electrical engineers; a lot of guys we train on hand. All of our team does
lighting, all of our team does power distribution and stuff like that. But a
couple of people are specialized in lighting, whereas other guys are more
towards the power distribution or low voltage. We just hired a guy that
specializes in low voltage and telecommunications. But ultimately, we all kind
of do everything. Our whole team — we've got a crew of 12 guys and gals in our
department alone.

Protecting Lighting Equipment

Adam: Cool. You and I collaborated on
a project a few months ago where we hired you guys to help put together a
specification for some sports lighting jobs, and we had a focus on power and
clean power. For us, with some of these mission-critical applications that we
work on — whether it's sports, high mast, airport lighting, infrastructure
lighting — we found out a couple years ago that it's really important to have a
holistic view of the electrical. In terms of protecting lighting equipment,
what do you see as the fundamentals of that, starting at the transformer, then
the distribution panel, then maybe at the pole itself, and then on board the
fixtures? When your team is designing a system, what are the things that you
require to be in that specification?

Matt: Typically we'll always have an
SPD on the incoming service — which typically will be a switchboard, or for a
smaller application, an I-line panel or something like that. We always have a
surge protection device on the incoming. Then as you branch out from there,
depending on what kind of loads you have on a panel, you'll have an SPD on that
panel as well. When you brought up the project that we helped you with, at the
pole level we also had another smaller Type 3 SPD at the pole to protect those
components within each of those poles. Included with that design, we had a lot
of lightning mitigation — a ground rod down to earth, and stuff like that.
Really, you're trying to protect those components and the whole system.

Retrofit Applications

Adam: How does that differ with new
installations versus retrofit applications, where the existing electrical and
conduit is there? What will you guys do from a product standpoint to help
protect retrofit applications with existing electrical infrastructure?

Matt: There are things you can do,
obviously. A lot of times we'll go into existing facilities and see that there
are no surge protection devices whatsoever. That's something you can add on
easy enough after the fact, and add some additional protection. Going back to
the project we helped you with, there was some fusing involved, stuff like
that. You don't see it too much, but there are things you can do to help
mitigate surges and help protect the system overall.

Food Processing Applications

Adam: Cool. In the food processing
market specifically, the lighting in that space — what are you guys looking for
in a product? Could be from a compliance standpoint, could be lumen output.
When you start to look for products to specify, what are the main ingredients
that you want?

Matt: Sure. A lot of times our
environments — when you're introducing these now LED fixtures — are wash-down
rated and fully gasketed. They've got to be able to take on water. The other
aspect is, you know, NEMA 4X rated, where you're introducing some chemicals and
cleaning chemicals. The other aspect is wash-downs — whether it's a
high-pressure hose or not. You know, if it's 20 feet in the air, it's probably
not going to get hit too hard with all hoses, but those are all things to take
into account. NSF ratings, certain ratings like that in those environments, are
important. Lumens per watt have been going up astronomically, which is great —
it only helps the overall wattage consumption go down. So it really is
fantastic getting into the LED world. Things are making it easier for us, and
better for everyone really.

Adam: Have you guys done anything with
remote drivers or remote power, or typically the products that you specify, do
they have on-board drivers and power at the fixture?

Matt: Typically they're on board. If
there's a need for a remote, it doesn't happen often. Usually it comes down to
the size of the housing itself. If it needs to be remote — a lot of times
you'll see, like, decorative fixtures have a remote. But there's really not a
whole lot of reason to have a remote driver if you're getting to the fixture,
which is less than us, nowadays. It's so rare that there's really not a reason
for it. But if you did, it wouldn't be too far away.

Product Spec Sheets

Adam: On spec sheets and product
support documents, if you had to ID a few things that bad spec sheets would
have versus good spec sheets when you guys are going through product options —
what do you want to see on those cut sheets?

Matt: Easy to understand. I like a
nice, clean, easy-to-understand model number for example.

Adam: Intuitive.

Matt: Yeah, kind of makes sense. You
know, you run across some model numbers, and it's just this long and jumbled.
So yeah, a nice clean cut sheet. Your fixtures that you use often enough —
you're familiar with it, you've been tried and true — but a clear list of
listings: UL listing, NSF for example, those types of things. If those are kind
of written right on the boxes, then it's heartwarming. It's nice to see that
right away.

Adam: There's some confidence there.

Specification Packets

Adam: Beyond that — cell sheets,
brochures — your owner customers, your end-users, what types of things do they
want to see versus the technical people on your team? Or is it just a case
where when you guys put together a specification packet and more or less sign
off on it, that's the vote of confidence they need?

Matt: It really is that vote of
confidence. If you are presenting it, there's some trust in it. We're not going
to present a fixture that we don't trust or aren't sure of. But ultimately,
owners like to see the look — obviously, the finished product, aesthetics are
important. And then again, it comes down to pricing as well — they don't want
to overpay, but you get what you pay for. As long as it's a good quality
fixture, that's most important.

Value Engineering

Adam: One of the terms that I hear
thrown around a lot with some of our partners in the supply chain is value
engineering — where there's a budget that's given, there's more or less a
general project that's approved, and then there's a cost-cutting or mitigation
process that goes into that. How do you guys balance that fine line between
saving your customers money but at the same time not incorporating low-quality
technologies into the end of the job?

Matt: Typically we don't like the term
value engineering. Honestly, the value is engineered up front for us — that's
the best way I can put it. We're not in the business of just wasting owners'
money. We're taking that engineering and putting value to it, adding value to
it, and using best practices. Value engineering usually doesn't work out well
for the owner in the end. Like I said, we like to put that value ahead of time
and engineer it in our process.

Technology Trends & IoT

Adam: What about technology trends in
your business as it relates to lighting? Some of the components companies that
I've interviewed recently — certainly there's a lot of talk about IoT controls.
It seems like there are multiple electrical disciplines that are in the process
being merged right now. Traditionally a light fixture's job was to produce
photons and put them on a vertical or horizontal plane; fixtures are now moving
into really being computers or microcontrollers. Do you see IoT, say at an
industrial building, as separate from lighting, or do you think of those two
things as one and the same? And how does the control side of things relate to
lighting versus just general building management?

Matt: The IoT thing hasn't really
kicked off in our world too much. What we're starting to see more and more is
the introduction of wireless controls, that I haven't really used much either,
because I haven't had much trust in it. But I keep hearing really good things
about it, especially with renovation projects. I think there's some value
there. The IoT thing — it's becoming everywhere; we just don't see it too much
at this point in time.

Where Will Lighting Controls Live?

Adam: Once that kind of goes
mainstream within your discipline or market, do you guys think you'll have a
separate crew or a separate team that's supporting that? I know you have an
audio-visual department that maybe is a little bit closer to what lighting is going
to be a few years down the road. Do you see more of that skill set on that team
taking ownership of the industrial IoT or the lighting controls, or do you
think that'll still be within the electrical and lighting silo?

Matt: I did fail to mention we have an
AV division earlier. We will put our heads together and work together on things
like that. So you are correct — lighting controls is a big aspect of what they
do, and we have and will work together on projects, and ultimately get the end
product together. The lighting control aspect is something that we'll both
definitely do. But they do a lot of AV things, and lighting control is
definitely one of them.

Adam: I interviewed an engineer with
one of our suppliers a couple weeks ago, and we were discussing lighting
controls, lighting technologies, wireless technologies. It was pretty much his
stand that there are plenty of technology options out there — it's just a
matter of a lot of the lighting companies getting on the same page. There are
other products — residential things, audio-visual products, other industrial
IoT products — that have been using these wireless technologies forever. But
for whatever reason, a lot of the lighting companies are still going in
multiple directions. He was talking a lot about ZigBee, or Bluetooth Mesh, or
Wi-Fi versus Cat5. It's not a matter of necessarily picking one and running
with it, but really understanding the application. For instance, with us on the
sports side, if we're trying to put a light show together for a retrofit
application, it's not necessarily feasible for the customer to run all new
Ethernet cable to 400 fixtures for a minor league ballpark. So being able to
leverage some of the tried-and-true wireless technologies I think is important.
But it really has to be understood by the specifier and by the factory. And
also having factories that can help with the commissioning process — some of
the controls projects that we've done, we try and program and commission as
much as possible at the factory, and when it gets on site all the fixtures are
ID'd, both at the driver but also in the control software. Contractors — it
seems like they just want to hook things up, they want to bolt them to the
existing infrastructure, hook up the hot, neutral, ground, and they don't
necessarily want to be in the Geek Squad business of troubleshooting things.
For me, I'm trying to understand — I think in the lighting space this troubleshooting
skillset certainly has to emerge. The question is, at what level can it be? Is
it going to be with the engineering firm, the contractor, support from the
factories, a service contract from the factory? Within that context, maybe on
the AV side, if you had to take a guess — where do you see that falling in over
the next few years?

Matt: I think a lot of that would
actually stem from the owner, and whether they want to introduce a technology
like the things you mentioned in their building. A lot of guys are old school,
and they just don't even want to think about the Geek Squad aspect, because
there's inherent issues that come up.

The Geek Squad Reality

Adam: I think they're probably right
for being cautious about it, and we've actually been cautious. We always say
when we ship product, ideally we don't see it back — because it's working as it
should. Good news, good news. I'm sure we've all helped friends and family
members out with troubleshooting their IT issues and their computers, and it
gets frustrating. So I think people have had the right kind of reaction to it,
especially for sports jobs and other applications where they're hard to get to,
hard to reach. We interviewed Synapse a couple weeks ago, an industrial IoT and
lighting company. They make a product that sits on top of a ZigBee protocol.
One of the conclusions we came to is that it's really more of an IT discipline.
So instead of just maybe an engineering team or the maintenance department
being involved in the project at an industrial facility, the IT people kind of
need to get involved as well. I think lighting's going to get to the point
where it's really not any different to commission a light fixture than it is to
commission a desktop computer, and having some of those skills involved in that
process I think is going to be key.

Matt: Yeah. The other aspect too is,
we can introduce certain things and bring up things that maybe the owner
doesn't know about or hadn't thought about. So it's definitely important for
guys like us to learn those technologies and have the ability — have it in our
back pocket — to introduce it.

Looking Ahead

Adam: Absolutely. So what other
technology trends or other things are you guys seeing, or maybe hoping for?
What are you hoping the technologists, the component vendors, and the fixture
companies develop over the next few years?

Matt: I'm kind of looking forward to,
or keeping in mind, the wireless aspect of things. I had some doubts about it,
but I'm hearing things like the encryption is going to improve — because that
was one fear we had from an owner perspective: security, getting hacked from
the outside. So I'm starting to gain a little bit more trust in the things I've
been hearing about it. Like I said, it could be great for renovation projects.
And like you said, different companies do it different ways — maybe some things
are wireless but some things are still wired, so you have a lot of flexibility.
But lighting control in general is something that you have to be good at,
because energy codes are getting so stringent, and owners want that control —
and they should have it. So lighting controls is definitely something we'll
stay on top of, and look forward to different products and different means to
get what you want.

Project Management Process

Adam: In the project management
process, how does a firm like Excel work on behalf of the end-user to help
select a contractor? What role do you guys take in that part of the process?

Matt: We have contractors that we've
worked with before, kind of similar to light fixtures that you've used. But
ultimately, it is up to the owner to select that. They'll get bids in from four
or five contractors, depending on the size of the project, and it's up to them
to pick what price they're willing to pay. There's only so much we can do — we
tell them a few names, but that's really about it. It's ultimately up to them.

Adam: Anything else you'd like to add
or run through?

Matt: I guess it's just an exciting
time. Kudos to you guys for being ahead of the curve of the LED world. It
really has been quite the change to go from the old technology — HID, compact
fluorescent — but LEDs, it's an exciting time.

Adam: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks a
lot, man. I appreciate you coming in. We'll definitely have you back — there's
a lot to cover on this topic.

Matt: Alright, thank you. Thank you.